LiveSite 7.1? architecture? LSDS vs LSCS? Targeting?

Hi all,

I'm reading docs on TeamSite / LiveSite 7.1 to understand its suitability for a future project. I'm left with many questions regarding the new concepts in this release 7.1.

I will probably need to ask IWOV support for this - as probably there are few of you on this version - but thought I'd put it out there...

Am trying to grasp the architecture of LiveSite Display Services (LSDS) and LiveSite Content Services (LSCS).

(PS: before you tell me I need a training - yes, I may need one. But I have ample experience with TS 6.5, LS 2.21 and a reasonable insight in TS 6.7 - LS 3 )

Specific questions :

- Can LSDS be used (installed) without LSCS?
--> what features unavailable then? E.g. no Targeting? other?

- Can LSCS be used (installed) without LSDS?
--> what features unavailable then?
--> I suppose this is only good to use with Forms (DCRs) and binary content (images, pdf, ...) that can be directly addressed or looked-up using metadata-matching queries.
--> I suppose that LSCS can't deliver rendered LS components (isolated) or LS pages - even if LSCS is combined with LSDS?).

- What exactly does LSDS need a DBMS for? What if we install LSDS without DB available?
--> I understand it could be a user repository (visitor accounts). Probably for some user-feedback Components (e.g. page feedback, blog comments, ...)
--> quid Targeting? ls_71_runtime_install_v01_en.pdf page 20 says LSDS uses a DB for Targeting rules. But elsewhere, docs say that Targeting is done by LSCS, and I'm wondering if that means its fully done by IDOL? Does IDOL use a DB then? I thought it uses a file-based index/repository. And in TeamSite, targeting rules (etc) are stored as files (XML?) under iwov-resources/* folder - so hence the question: is Targeting using an RDBMS anywhere?

- are LSDS and LSCS platform-specific?
--> ls_71_runtime_install_v01_en.pdf page 18: "LiveSite Display Services (LSDS) is a platform-specific component.". Why is that? I thought it was a J2EE webapp, which ought to be platform-independent?
--> AIX support or not? ls_71_rn_v01_en.pdf states that LSCS is supported on Win, Linux, Solaris. For LSDS support it additionally mentions AIX 6.1. Yet there is no installer for AIX available in Support/download. What's that about?

- Can you install LSDS (for a single website) on a farm (behind load-balancers)?
--> Would it be best for each instance in the farm to use its own DB, or a shared one (hence my question above regarding the use of this DB)?
--> Idem for the file store (the .page's, forms.xml and images).
--> Will the out-of-the-box LiveSite Content Publishing workflow handle the deployments to a farm?
(Admittedly lscs_71_tech_ref_v01_en.pdf talks about a farm of LSCS instances, but no mention of multiple LSDS for a single site.)

I'm sure I have more questions Smiley Wink

PS: if you decide to answer based on experience with LS 3.x, please be clear to mention that. My questions relate specifically to TS/LS 7.1 and I'm sure it is different in oh so many subtle ways.

if you read this far - Thanks.

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Comments

Crsb

Did you attend the last devnet webcast regarding 7.1?
I think you will find some of the answers in that webcast, especially concerning LS DS vs CS. here is the link:
http://imagestore.autonomy.com/2010/Videos/devnet/20100309_CI_AD_DevNet_Webinar/index.en.html?flv=/2010/Videos/devnet/20100309_CI_AD_DevNet_Webinar/20100309_CI_AD_DevNet_Webinar.flv

Frederik

thanks for the reference. I'll have to view it from home as my office's aggressive firewall is blocking it.

to DEVNET moderators Devnet/Webcasts page is not listing this!

nipper

thanks for the reference. I'll have to view it from home as my office's aggressive firewall is blocking it.

to DEVNET moderators Devnet/Webcasts page is not listing this!

That just came out last week. It was pretty cool, though I am now wanting more specifics.

annu1

Dear Frederik,

I am looking for Livesite7.1 and Targeting documents..

If you don’t mind could you please provide me the support document for livesite and targeting?

I don’t have support Id with me...

Thanks
Anu

Adam Stoller

Dear Frederik,

I am looking for Livesite7.1 and Targeting documents..

If you don’t mind could you please provide me the support document for livesite and targeting?

I don’t have support Id with me...

Thanks
Anu

Technically, that's illegal - you need to go through Support to get the documents - either you, or someone else in your organization who has access to the site. You can try to contact Support through email, but chances are they'll only send it to someone who is registered with them.

AlexC

- Can LSDS be used (installed) without LSCS?
Yes
Rules engine, targeting and content retrieval will not be available without LSCS.

- Can LSCS be used (installed) without LSDS?
LSCS is an HTTP REST server which is a content repository it is usable standalone, it is backed by IDOL for content indexing and provides an XML based rules engine. LSDS uses LSCS but LSCS can be used standalone given you write the HTTP calls into its API.

- What exactly does LSDS need a DBMS for? What if we install LSDS without DB available?
User profiles and some component data, all targeting is in LSCS and no longer in the LSDS DB
Targeting uses LSCS with IDOL and LSCS DB, rules engine is driven by XML files which don't need LSDS or anything else, however LSDS makes creation of these files very easy (and integrated into deployment) and TeamSite provides versioning.

- are LSDS and LSCS platform-specific?
All pure Java.

- Can you install LSDS (for a single website) on a farm (behind load-balancers)?
LSDS would be well suited in a farm with a load balancer in front and preferably a single database instance (I would think multiple DB instances would be a lot more complicated when dealing with user profile data). Installing OD listeners and doing fan deployment is used in many installations I have seen. Most common config is to have a load balancer forward to HTTP static content servers, LSDS for .page file rendering. Each LSDS uses a common LSDS database and usually its own instance of LSCS (LSCS has its own instance of IDOL and database which at the moment are not shareable).

Frederik

thanks a lot Alex. I'll be posting a few follow-up questions soon, but this has gotten me a good deal forward.

Frederik

Hi Alex. A few follow up questions to confirm my understanding of your previous answers - and to drill down on a few details.

- Can LSCS be used (installed) without LSDS?
LSCS is an HTTP REST server which is a content repository ...

My understanding so far (correct?):
LSCS is a content repository accessed via REST; used standalone or with LSDS. LSCS can deliver (as described in lscs_71_tech_ref_v01_en.pdf)... :

(1) content file (the actual bytes)
(2) content metadata
(3) content filter results (i.e. result list for metadata or full-text query)

(1) and (2) assume you have precisely addressed the content by path or id (id being an internal IDOL-for-LSCS primitive, so retrieved by an earlier content filter?).

Questions:
--> LSCS receives a copy of all content?
--> So if combined with LSDS, the content gets deployed once to LSDS and once to LSCS? Or in this case they share the file storage where content resides?
--> or does LSCS only get certain types of content? Like all the DCRs + images + pdf (configurable by type?)
--> or does LSCS only get content in some directories? configurable?

- are LSDS and LSCS platform-specific?
All pure Java.

So do you know anything about AIX support then. The Release Notes & (un)available installers are confusing me there.

- What exactly does LSDS need a DBMS for? What if we install LSDS without DB available?
User profiles and some component data; all targeting is in LSCS and no longer in the LSDS DB...
- Can you install LSDS (for a single website) on a farm (behind load-balancers)?
LSDS would be well suited in a farm with a load balancer in front and preferably a single database instance (I would think multiple DB instances would be a lot more complicated when dealing with user profile data).

Do I understand correctly that the component data is (only) visitor-generated content? (e.g. page ratings, comments, ...). Having multiple LSDS db would also complicate this...

In summary, would it be correct to say that :
- the LSDS database is not being deployed into from the backend (TS/SitePub) - by the Publish LiveSite Content (default SitePublisher wf) or any other mechanism?
- the LSDS database is directly accessed by SitePub for editing of (only) the Visitor profiles data (no DataDeploy)

thanks again!

nipper

- Can LSDS be used (installed) without LSCS?
Yes
Rules engine, targeting and content retrieval will not be available without LSCS.

What content retrieval would be lacking ? Surely not all content...

Frederik

What content retrieval would be lacking ? Surely not all content...

Nipper, I believe he means the core features of LSCS which is to provide REST-based access to content, which I've summed up in my post #9. This feature did not exist pre-7.x

See also "LiveSite Content Services Technical Reference Guide" if you have access to support (lscs_71_tech_ref_v01_en.pdf)

I'm assuming you haven't seen that doc yet, so here some REST API examples ± copy pasted from the doc, with my interpretation of what they're meant to do:

# this should send you back the file (the bits and bytes, e.g. UTF8-XML or JPG binary, ....)

http://hostort/lscs/v1/document/path/templatedata/article/press-release/data/2008/q1results.xml

# this should send you back all the metadata (ext attributes) - in JSON or XML format

http://hostort/lscs/v1/document/path/templatedata/article/press-release/data/2008/q1results.xml$*

# this should return a list of matching content (category = product) with all its metadata (I think) - in JSON or XML format

http://hostort/lscs/v1/document$*?q=categoryroduct

EDIT:
Or he means it as in the use of the term "Content Retriever" in Chapter 7 of Targeting guide (ts_71_tgt_v01_en.pdf)

Content Retriever retrieves content from LiveSite Content Services (LSCS) by dynamically building queries using parameters provided by the component and rule actions.

I guess I should have kept my mouth shut and let Alex clarify ;-)

Frederik

looks like I have scared away Alex with my detailed questions - oops Smiley Surprised

who else knows the LS 7.1 stack in detail? Smiley Wink

AlexC

Sorry was not in place where external access was not allowed Smiley Happy

Content retrieval I was talking about is the targeted content, when a rule executes it can then fetch content that is personalized for that user, that part is only available via LSCS, other content is available via LSDS standalone.

vpatel

At the highest level, LSDS handles the display and LSCS "powers" the targeting features among other things. In previous versions you had LS only which included iLog (which was wrapped up inside of LS). Sure enough if you've ever done any serious targeting implementations with previous versions, you probably have discovered some iLog limitations as well as the complexity involved with customizing things as they relate to iLog targeting.

What AU/IW came out with is they separated out the display and the rules engine (replaced iLOG with custom engine which provides a LOT more than iLog and with much much simplicity if you ever have to do any advanced targeting customizations). And this separation also allows you to integrate the targeted / dynamic content experience with not only LSDS but also other stacks (i.e. custom J2EE / .NET apps, Portals, other applications) via REST API.

IMHO, this is one of the best and coolest product to be featured by Interwoven under their WCM umbrella.

HTH!