Opinion: Don't Bite the Hand That Feeds You

I've been reading a lot of postings on DevNet that seem to bash Interwoven. Most of these are related to shortcomings or bugs. My feeling is, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I know that I've put food on my plate for the last 3 years finding creative solutions to some of the so-called shortcomings of the product. If every piece of software did everything perfectly out-of-the-box, there'd be no need for people like us.

No software is perfect and no company is perfect. I'm sure that folks at Interwoven have to deal with politics and procedures just like the rest of us. If you see a problem with a product, file a bug with Interwoven or make a request for enhancement. If we're all dillegent about this, then the it's up to Interwoven to address the issues.

Another reason to avoid negativity towards a product that you support is that eventually the wrong person may hear your complaint and decide that product isn't worth supporting any more thus making your position within the company obsolete.

I welcome additional opinions.

- Jason

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Comments

Migrateduser

While I understand what you are trying to say, I have to disagree - it is absolutely valid to point out shortcomings, bugs, frustrations, wants, needs, etc. here in this forum. That's kind of what it's for isn't it? I look at it the opposite way - if we simply pat Interwoven on the back for doing a mostly good job and putting out a product that keeps me employed (for now) and ignore the things that are bad or need to be fixed, then is that really helping anyone? I'm pretty sure Interwoven wants to know what's wrong with the product - hence the Focus Group sessions. Face it - the companies we work for all pay a lot of money for this product - it should have higher expectations of being solid than something I can go buy at Comp USA off the shelf. I hold Interwoven to a very high standard. If they become complacent and don't want to hear what needs to be better in the products, then I will start to worry about my job. How many software applications have come and gone? I want this one to stick around, so I'm planning on voicing what is wrong and needs to be fixed as loud as I can.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

nipper

I have to agree with Smitty. Most of us have been working with TS for a very long time and have more experience than a lot of IWOVers in the COMPLETE rollout of the product. Sales and SEs get in and out. Most consulating engangements are 2-3 months. People like us are doing multiple projects over many months and even years. Stuff I am seeing at my current gig was never even considered when I worked at IW.

95% of the complaints seen here are valid and IMHO, for the products own good.

BTW, I have also noticed more internal IWOVers posting, that is a really good thing. I was beginning to think they forgot about this forum.

Andy

Migrateduser

Dave,
I also understand your point. I've had my share of frustrations as well, believe me. But my philosophy is that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you want something change, by all means make it known, make it public. I'm not even saying candy coat it or put a pretty bow on it. Just maybe say it without the snide remarks or the word "sucks". :-)

I also want Interwoven to succeed. I try post as many support cases about bugs and RFE's as I find issues.

You've got to admit that things are getting better. Current products are far more flexible that the early products and it looks like they're just going to get more flexible and configurable.

- Jason

Migrateduser

Some things do suck, though. I think Interwoven can handle people saying so. I know I've been told the next release of the product will absolutely be able to do this or that. Then I go tell my customers that they will be getting this or that and they get all excited and anticipate they will be getting this or that. Then the release has come out and there's nothing remotely like this or that in there. So I have to go back and tell everyone that I was mistaken and there is no this or that. Trust me - that sucks and Interwoven needs to know that it sucks. Everything is relative.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

mogoo

Jason-

I beg to differ. While he thought of ghoti weeping himself to sleep at night because somebody said iwov's documentation sucks, or Lissa drinking herself into oblivion because someone said one of iwov's "features" is destroying their work would break my heart, yet somehow I think the IWOVers have thicker skin than that. So exactly who are you trying to protect with your "just play nice" rules?

This forum, as I understand it, has very few rules. The FAQs don't address post content at all. Like Smitty says, a company that actually listens and encourages any kind of criticism is a company that will be criticized for a very long time. Which is a good thing. If we don't kill them, we'll only make them stronger.

Many of us are too busy to sit and craft a "politically correct" way to say things when what we really want to say is "this sucks, change it". It's simply quicker and more to the point. And leaves less room for interpretation, I might add.

So ghoti, take some Unisom and warm milk. And Lissa, well, we'll get you in to a good AA program. As for the rest of us, we should continue to **** away, no holds barred. Don't be disrespectful to individuals, there's no need for that, but say exactly what's on your mind! After all, that's the point of a public forum...

maureen
"this sucks, change it!" <-- hmm, new tagline???

Migrateduser

Opinions always make such fun reading.

So, are you saying that you'd rather see Interwoven put out software with 0 defects and can do everything out of the box with just a couple clicks of the mouse? Or are you just disagreeing that being matter-of-fact about reporting short-comings is a better idea than being semi-nasty about it? I never said, "don't criticize." I'm just talking about having some tact when doing it. Perhaps even being a little bit aware of the audience that you're saying it to. In DevNet forums, I think that most of us are developers and understand the pain that sometimes accompanies Interwoven's products. I myself have shed some blood, sweat, and tears over certain releases.

I think my general point that I was trying to make was to report issues in a way that is most likely to get a resolution. Perhaps that's where our difference of opinion lies. Which way will get us the best results? In the end, that's all any of us want. We want our issue addressed.

I think we've stumbled into philosophy...

- Jason

Migrateduser

Again it's hard to just say you should be one way or another way when posting. Everything is relative. I believe some people deserve a smack on the head for not reading the docs before asking certain questions that are clearly answered if they'd just RTFM. I think there are some issues that require a good debate to stir up a little intensity. It's not unlike a war room type of work meeting to resolve issues. There may be times when people go too far - we're only human. But I certainly don't think people should hold back when they are passionate about something. And sometimes the answers Interwoven gives just aren't good enough. It all just depends, but I think most of the time people are justified when they get frustrated and post something harsh.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

Migrateduser

I think it's good to speak your mind, if you're passionate sometimes that means the words are emotionally charged.

I think it's good to be respectful. That means even when you're emotionally charged you should be constructive: e.g. this stinks because. .... Not he/she stinks (my son can't use the other 's' word at camp, so I'm practicing too)

I think it's good to say something positive as often as you say something negative.

We all do have thick skins at IWOV. I'm glad people care enough to tell us what they think.

I should also say that if the first time I visited a forum I only saw negative comments, I wouldn't return.

So far I think there's a healthy balance here on the IWOV forums.

Lissa - representing herself,

lissa

johnjamesmarsh

I would like to argue the point that Interwoven feeds us. They don't feed me. If I was not implementing Teamsite I would be doing something else. I was playing with Microsoft CMS server a while back and could see the potential of a fully MS based solutions for small company websites. My point is if it wasn't Teamsite it would be something else.

I like the principles of Teamsite. My business team like the benefits of the product. My editors are very happy with the new system based on Teamsite rather than 20 other disparate tools. People don't buy me coffees all day because I've done such a good job. They say "can't it do this or that". If Teamsite was easier to configure I could tell them "yes, I'll do that for you now".

My business is to give them what they want. Your business should be to give me what I want. When we get to the point Teamsite is configured with a couple of mouse clicks we will move on to doing something else.

Change is our friend, not our enemy.

John

rollo

No piece of enterprise software that tries to address such a wide range of scenarios is ever going to work 'out of the box'. Most implementations require a lot of customisation to match the technology to the business processes. So until IWOV figures out a way to make it so easy to set up that a monkey could do it, we're okay.

We could argue shortcomings all day, as far as feature sets. I don't think people get mad over stuff like that. They get mad over bugs that should have never got into a release candidate, documentation that could be so very helpful if only it existed, misleading (or misinterpreted) statements from the mother ship.. that kind of stuff. And why not. There's nothing personal in it, and the IWOVers tend not to irrationally defend the product. And if more of it sucked than rocked (okay, I'm being polar), the forums would be empty.

Anyway, usually the bugs can be worked around. But if nobody posted them here to start with, the collective wouldn't find a solution, and we'd all have to solve the same problems, on our own, over and over. And that would really su.. err.. stink.

Phil

Migrateduser

For those of you who want your opinions to be heard, be sure to register for the chat with our Interwoven CEO on July 30th. While Martin won't be able to commit to a specific feature request, we do want to hear how we're doing supporting developers.

lissa

Adam Stoller

FWIW - I don't lose sleep because someone says that some product has problems - I lose sleep because I try to answer as many questions as possible correctly - and in cases like my current status in which I've just gotten back from being away from the forums for over a week and try to read each and every post that was made in my absence.

I do find words like "sucks" to be a bit offensive, and prefer a somewhat more enlightened and detailed description of problems being faced - but I also realize that not everyone knows how to express themselves clearly without using expletives (it's a shame, but ...)

While part of me wishes that we could release products that had everything desired built into them OOTB and no bugs existed, I think that it's unreasoable to *expect* that to be the case (and I also think it would be kind of boring ;-) - and that there is a distinct difference between providing constructive criticisms and flamatory remarks.

Frankly, I think some of the bugs that have managed to make their way through to the release have stimulated some very creating thinking and perhaps improved the products in more ways than might have been realized had the bugs not been there in the first place (this is not to say I advocate releasing buggy software - just that it is somewhat ironically beneficial in some cases to have missed a few of them here and there)

There is also a distinction that needs to be made between the various levels of "bugs" - from those things that bring everything to a screeching halt [very bad] to those things that don't do everything we thought they would [bad] to those things that don't do everything we want them to do [nice-to-have's a.k.a. feature requests] - and all the various levels between and beyond those extents

Oh well, I've got several hundred more posts to read, so I'll step off my tiny little soap-box now. Keep the posts coming, but try to minimize the flames and maximize the contructive critiques.

--fish
(Interwoven Senior Technical Consultant)

johnjamesmarsh

I'd like to point out that I am an Interwoven customer. My company has paid enough money to Interwoven to pay off several third world countries debt. I think that means we feed you doesn't it?

Adam Stoller

I wasn't the one who entitled this thread - however as you seemed to reply to my post regarding this - I think of it more as a symbiotic relationship - we feed each other - in various ways.

Interwoven provides the product that, if you're reading these forums most likely, provides you with either a system to use or a product to support through consulting and/or administration. You [the general "you"] provide financial support to keep us going and feedback to help direct our efforts for making the system better.

I think these forums are a great example of that symbiotic relationship. Sure, some posts slip through the cracks but on the whole much of what gets discussed here leads to either product (including training) enhencements or entirely new product offerings.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed working for Interwoven is this openness to feedback from the field - both from customers and from employees - Interwoven [all of us] want to make the product better to make your experience with it better and to improve your return on investment for using it better so that you'll remain customers and we remain a company [to put it very bluntly]

I think of it as a win-win situation.

--fish
(Interwoven Senior Technical Consultant)

johnjamesmarsh

I agree with you that these forums are a good place to air views. My users ask me for features then I try to work out what I can deliver to them to fulfill their needs. I come into the forums and read a lot of articles and find a lot of answers. I also post some questions and have even answered one or two points.

It's a shame we complain more about what is wrong than what is right but I think that is human nature. I certainly appreciate the answers I get to issues, especially as they relate to the specific implementation I have rather than Teamsite in general.