Is certification worth it?

I have no vested interest in this whatsoever, just a curiosity. I'm wondering if the consultants out there who are certified find that it makes a difference in the ability to find work and the amount of money they get paid relative to non-certified folks. How much does it cost to get certified? How much does it cost to get re-certified when an upgrade comes out? If I was a consultant I'm not sure It would be worth it - people always used to say that having an advanced degree would open up so many more opportunities in the job market and I never really noticed that being so true. Experience alone counts for everything I've found.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

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I have not been certified and have been able to find lucrative Interwoven contracts for a long time - even now when the economy is not good I have not had a day when I couldn't find a job. Of course I think that says something about the need for extensive custom development of the product. In fact it is now hard for me to get away from Interwoven.

I have met certified Interwoven consultants (former IW employees) who had no business being in technical roles on projects. Based on this I have to say that certification is a marketing thing, not a technical thing. I also wonder what it says about someone that they chose to pay for a resume bullet - they are trying to make themself marketable, meaning they think their resume is week to begin with.

But every customer varies. I see job postings that say Interwoven certified consultants only. I don't think they know what they're talking about. If I had a choice between someone who had years of SQL experience and someone who had enough benchtime to pay Oracle for a PL/SQL trainig course I would choose the person who couldn't make enough time on the bench to seek formal training.

well, I was made to get certified when I was with IWOV. I did not feel a real need for it. I can tell you why. The certification does not tell HOW WELL did you pass the test. I naturally have passed with a Master score, however I know of people who had no idea about teamSite, went into 2 weeks of bootcamp and then got the same certificate that I have, having scored just above the pass mark. But - technically, on paper, we are equal.

So, IMHO the recruiters will still look for your real experience. Only then they would compare me, with more than 15 accounts behind me with a novice 'certified' consultant.

Now - the more serious issue is re-certification. I believe it's a profound joke. You cannot certify to 6.0 unless you are 5.5 certified. WHY? I still could not get any sensible answers from Iwov education, apart from the fact they told me that I, as IWOV employee, should be an example for the others (mind you, it's 1.5 years since I am no longer with them). I see no reasons for 5.0->5.5 certification, the money is the only driving force.

This is why I doubt I would proceed for 6.0 certification unless IWOV removes the requirement to be 5.5 certified. I am getting my contracts regardless of the certificate, my reputation is my certification Smiley Happy

Greg Zevin, Ph.D. Comp. Sc.
Independent Interwoven Consultant/Architect
Sydney, AU

Have to agree with John. Not certified, doubt that too many people I work with care.

That being said, there will always be a company that has a check box & if you don't check that box, you don't play.

Andy

Ahhh, so this is play. No pain no gain, eh? Smiley Happy

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

Anyway, ~$10,000 would probably be better spent on time off for post-graduate work - I think I lived for a year on about that amount when I was in college.

Having been involved with the development of the certification program, test, and re-creation of bootcamp while I was at Interwoven, I think I can clear up some of the issues:

1) Interwoven BootCamp / Certification is a test of base-level Interwoven consulting skills
2) It was developed because Interwoven was running into a lot of problems with 3rd-party consulting firms going in to do Interwoven engagements where none of the members of the consulting staff had even picked up a manual, let alone received any training or had any past experience.
3) The hope (last time I knew) was to eventually offer advanced levels of certification that distinguished the "I know what TeamSite is" folks from the "I know how to write a [workflow, template, ...] to do what you want" folks.

Is certification worth it? Generally, I think so - but I'm a bit biased having been involved with its development.

Is certification the be-all / end-all of what you need to do? Absolutely NOT - it's an indication of some base-level of competency (even if/when advanced certification comes around - it will just be a higher-base-level).

Some employers/customers overlook what certification means and assumes that someone who is certified can do everything they want - others, more realistically, use it as an initial means of skimming through applicants. If they have 10 applicants for an Interwoven-related position and 5 of them are certified, they'll probably look at those 5 applicants in more depth and, unless something really catches their eye, ignore the other 5 applicants.

I won't bother trying to argue for or against the pricing / prerequesite / politics involved in and around certification - as that's not generally my playing field.

If I get the opportunity to become 6.0 certified - will I do it? Yes.

--fish
Senior Consultant, Quotient Inc.
http://www.quotient-inc.com

Also it's a question of playing market odds.

If there are more positions than applicants - certification is less required because employers want to fill the positions.

If there are more applicants than positions - certification is more required because potential employees want to be able to help distinguish themselves from others. That's just to get your foot in the door. Once you've managed to get that far - then the certification is generally put aside and real-world experience counts for more than anything else.

(IMO)

--fish
Senior Consultant, Quotient Inc.
http://www.quotient-inc.com

Based on this in-depth explanation of what certification really gives you, I can certainly understand Greg's ire regarding having to complete 5.5 certification before he is allowed to get 6.0 certified. If certification is simply a test of base level Interwoven consulting skills, and he is able to pass the 6.0 test without taking the 5.5 test, what's wrong with that? If a company was looking for someone who is 5.5 certified, Greg would not be able to say he was, which is fair. But that should be his choice, not Interwoven's.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

Heard a lot of opinions from people who aren't certified... Let me tell you the opinion from the point-of-view of someone who is certified (5.5). I agree that in reality, it doesn't mean you know anything more than the next guy. The same can be said for a college degree. What it does mean is that you knew enough to pass a set standard. I have worked for companies that only cared about experience. I have also worked for companies that are very interested in whether or not I was certified. The fact is that often times we are hired by non-technical managers and they don't necessarily understand all of the experience that we've had, but they do understand a certification.

My advice: If you are a consultant, it can do nothing but increase your value. I say that if you can get just one job that you wouldn't have gotten without certification, it's worth it. Or if you can get $5/hour more because you're certified, it's worth it.

If you're in a secure permanent position, or if you want to try to move away from Interwoven, then I'd probaby recommend against getting certified.

- Jason

Clarification, I hope, on certification policy. It is not a consultant's choice to skip major TeamSite versions if he wants to stay certified. Our certification program requires consultants to fulfill ongoing certification requirements and to keep up-to-date on product releases. This is a standard requirement of most certification programs, and one a consultant agrees to when signing the certification agreement.

I guess I don't see the point of getting certified on 5.5 if all a guy plans to work on is 6.0 and above. I would think the test would be broad enough to cover everything anyone would need to know to be considered knowledgable. As others have said, certification does not equal expert. I would agree with the way it is if a person who passes the test would have to be an absolute technical expert. But just having a broad knowledge of the product - that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I don't know many other companies that have certification programs....Microsoft and Oracle come to mind - I'm sure there are plenty. I don't think it's fair to compare Interwoven to either of those companies in any way. Just my opinion.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

The difference, at least with Microsoft, is that you can study on your own and only have to pay for a test. Interwoven forces you to take their training course at considerable expense. I still think it's up to the individual or their company as to whether certification is worthwhile.

- Jason

Kathleen,

my point is again - you are charging a few hundred dollars for 5.5 certification. As a specialist, I can tell you that THERE ARE NO fundamental differences between 5.0 and 5.5.2. You call 5.5 a major release, I agree, but it's a major release from technological point of view only. The only difference is Form API. Now is that true that I have to pay a few hundres dollars just for that? I recieved a study guide from education - it's too generic, vaguely covers basically all the areas of TeamSite, that have not been affected at all, so, as far as I am concerned, the goal was to obfuscate thing and pretend that the certification is worth something.

Trust me, I am earning money doing consulting in Interwoven products, and meet quite a few clients of yours. And, please listen to what I am saying Smiley Happy

Most of certification come from big accounts, who afford to pay for it, but during harder times even they will ask whether it makes sense. Many clients have already moved to 5.5.2, but I know of no-one who certified from 5.0 to 5.5 (why would they?). It means, that if you insist on the requirement to have 5.5 certification prior to 6, you will see your certification uptake getting lower.

Greg Zevin, Ph.D. Comp. Sc.
Independent Interwoven Consultant/Architect
Sydney, AU

The problem - unless they have changed this since I last looked into it two years ago - is that they make certification meaningless by bundling it with the cram class and promising something like a 90% pass rate. In other words, that someone is certified proves only that they aren't in the *bottom* decile. Thus far, not being certified hasn't been a barrier for me being gainfully employed. If it becomes a barrier, I'll drop the cash, drive up to Bethesda and get it done.

Hey Rob - it's been a long time. Where have you been? Good to see you again...

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

Spent the last two years abusing 5.0.x and 5.5.2 to make it munge data from TeamCatalog. Now I'm at a different job, in Charlotte, using TeamSite for its intended purpose. So, I think I'll have a lot more to say now that every problem I deal with isn't something unique to my situation.

I see that you are still holding everyone's feet to the fire.

Yes I do have a reputation to uphold. Smiley Happy

It is good to see you back - we could use your experience here. Most of the IW folks don't post here anymore.

Dave Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Nike, Inc.
(503) 671-4238
DavidH.Smith@nike.com

I agree with John and Andy. I'm not certified with Interwoven and have never had trouble finding work.

For what it's worth, I had received two certifications (Developer and Architect) with Vignette 3 - 4 years ago and customers had looked more at my experience rather than my certs. They still do.

Given the apparent time dedication (why would you have 2 weeks free, anyway?), the gross expense, and the lackluster results from the training, it's very appropriate that experience is stressed more than certifications in the majority of scenarios that I've seen.

Dave

dave@simpleinternet.com
+USA (215) 962-5153

Hi

As an independent Interwoven consultant/architect I thought I should add my 2 cents to the 'certification isn't worth much' camp. There is no denying that a two week training course gives you a reasonable introduction to TeamSite. But I don't think it provides a benchmarked indicator of a developers ability to perform any but the most basic parts of a TeamSite development project. OK for getting your foot in the door on a TeamSite job (perhaps?), but no substitute for experience.

The comparison was made to a college degree, which also doesn't guarantee ability. For sure, however for most degrees you would be exposed to the fundamentals and underlying principals of the topic over several years -- in addition to practical skills. The recognition comes because of the lasting value of this training, as well showing you passed a set standard of knowledge. A two week training course and short answer test can't cover anything in any depth and should get a corresponding amount of recognition.

I think Interwoven need to 'get serious' about the certification process and make it a bit more rigorous than a two week training course, or drop it all together. Due to the costs involved and small developer base I would suggest the later.

Anyhoo that is just my opinion.

Cheers
Michael

Another bit of certification trivia is that Interwoven were (at one point) offering a 'certification bypass' option which allowed experienced developers to undertake the certification test without undertaking the training. I believe you had to be the employee of an Interwoven customer though.... (and still pay a suprisingly large fee

)

I don't recall it being publicised anywhere on the websites, but perhaps someone from Interwoven would like to confirm/deny/update us all on the situation.

Cheers
Michael

There is a certification bypass or "fast track" option. It requires several steps; 1) fill out the application which documents verifiable work experience. 2) pay the fee 3) Have a phone interview with an Interwoven consultant and 4) pass the certification test. We do not publish this option on the website because it is an exception procedure that is quite labor intensive and costly for us (despite what is perceived to be a high fee). It is most often used by partner organizations which have their own training and mentoring program. Applications can be obtained by emailing certification@interwoven.com.

Thanks for that info -- I didn't know about such a program but c'mon, it's expensive to Interwoven? I'm sure they're not losing money on folks who choose this bypass option :-) curious how much the fee is, though.

Depending on the fee and the hassle, it might be a nice option. I don't qualify though because I'm an employee only to myself :-(

dave@simpleinternet.com
+USA (215) 962-5153